Jules Jones

Yog's Law: Money flows *towards* the author


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Fascinating stuff, and I'll think about it and try to respond. For now, just one other thing: I hate seeing some male character I fancy in a clinch with some hussy; I don't at all mind seeing him in a clinch with a bloke. Doesn't feel so like competition. FWIW, I do believe that in RL I would be less upset if my bloke went with another man than with another woman (amazed, but less upset) because at least I'd feel that whatever he had gone looking for was something I couldn't have given him, so I wouldn't feel a failure.

We had a good discussion at Redemption about Why Do Lesbians and Straight Men like M/M. My own feeling is that there is no single reason for people's enjoyment of slash, and certainly your own viewpoint on enjoying slash differs from mine.

What I did mention at the discussion was that lesbians and straight men into m/m let us dispose with several arguments *as universal explanations* (not necessarily as personal explanations, or as explanations applicable to many.) The 'one man is hot, two are hotter' and 'it's all about The Other' theories cannot apply to lesbian/straight male slashers as they do to heterosexual females. One may say that these (or rather we!) are not the majority of slashers and therefore don't count, but non-female, non-heterosexual slashers do allow others to question what may seem 'natural' assumptions about their enjoyment of slash.

I have never felt that my enjoyment of slash had anything to do with sexual desire for men. I also tend to oppose the 'it's sexy' argument, as through many years of my enjoyment of slash I didn't read a single fic I found 'sexy' :) Others differ in their enjoyment of slash, but there are many to whom the obvious (to female people attracted to men) explanations do not apply. :)

certainly your own viewpoint on enjoying slash differs from mine.[...] I have never felt that my enjoyment of slash had anything to do with sexual desire for men

Well, I don't think mine has that much to do with it either. Mine is closely connected with my enjoyment of angst. I like it because it opens characters up and makes them vulnerable. I like emotive stuff while hating goo and fluff, and I think the goo-hate is one reason i don't like het, which too often turns out like that.

(Or were you referring back to julesjones's original post? That seems more likely, but for the comment indent.)

I was responding initially to your comment on "I hate seeing some male character I fancy in a clinch with some hussy", which doesn't really apply in my case (though it made me grin.) :) The comment on sexual desire etc was intended as a separate point, more in reference to the original post (I was too lazy to make two separate ones as I was running out of the door -- sorry!)

I certainly agree with you on the angst. One of my other comments at Redemption and elsewhere was that I see slash and H/C as pretty much the same genre. I think of it as 'emotiporn', and feel I get the same thing from a slash story and an angsty suffering fic -- it's about escalating the level of emotion/expression. This ties in with slash motivations, as my lack of desire for actual physical suffering is somewhat comparable to my lack of desire for hot man action. Most people do not consider masochism a relevant qualification for H/C, and equally I don't feel that desire for the male is the most useful starting point for analysing slash. :)

The above is not aimed at refuting anyone's argument particularly. It's just me thinking 'aloud' on the topic. I find the fact that we slash pretty fascinating, but also mysterious.

whether it is possible to tell whether an erotica writer is male or female (often, but not always, yes)

I find this very interesting, I hope you can expand on it later.

Just out of interest, does this read like a male or female writer?

Neither, particularly.

Hard to say. If I read it in a non-test situation I would have thought female. But feeling myself being tested I became all tensed up. ;-)

This seems a very full analysis. I tend to find people zoom in on one or two 'explanations' but I think this covers a good selection, and it would be a really good read for people who either hadn't thought about the issue, or had settled too quickly for a single 'explanation'.

spacefall mentioned her excellent panel on 'gay women and straight men who like slash', which you would have enjoyed, shame you couldn't be there. I am still not convinced there are many of the latter (i.e. straight male fans), but there are obviously quite a few of the former (ie gay women fans).

For me a big issue is the ever-retreating, ever-elusive nature of desire. What you can't have is always more tempting, and m/m, almost by definition, is what one can't have. Perhaps for this reason I prefer hints and unexpected kisses on screen to fully worked out fiction (in many cases).

I've probably told you before: "because the Bible said so".

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